Interview with the Sunday News

U.S. Ambassador Dell concluded a farewell tour of Bulawayo city on june 18 and 19. During the tour, Dell also met journalists based in Zimbabwe's second largest city and also answered questions from Herbert Zharare, News Editor at the Sunday News, a weekly Government-owned newspaper based in the city. The interview, as published in the paper's edition of June 24 2007 follows:

Ambassador Dell(left), Herbert Zharare (middle) during the interview.

QUESTION: How has been your stay in Zimbabwe, we understand you will be leaving soon to take up another mission elsewhere?

ANSWER: That is right -yes I have been here for almost three years now. I have enjoyed tremendously. It is a beautiful country and everybody who comes here will obviously say its one of the most beautiful countries in Africa. I certainly share that opinion. I have been all over the country from Nyanga in the far northeast down to Victoria Fall as far as northwest you can go. There are a lot of places in between – its an amazing place.  I think that is part of the heartbreak of Zimbabwe – you see how beautiful it is and I am actually aware of the difficulties, the problems and the suffering of the people. But above all, I have enjoyed myself, the Government has not gone out of its way to make me particularly welcome, but non the less, I have enjoyed my work here. I have enjoyed the people I have met here, above all, I have enjoyed the Zimbabweans I have met. Everybody think that this is the virtue where it is true that Zimbabwe’s greatest asset is really its people. There are many terrifically educated Zimbabweans - people who can be leaders in any fields in the world - very impressive. So overall, my impressions are very fine. I met my wife here - of course she is not Zimbabwean, but I leave the country with very very fine memories.

Q: In terms of your mission, can you say you have accomplished it?

A: I believe so – contrary to the Government and the ruling party would like to asset regularly - our mission here is not of regime change. I prefer to define our mission here as regime restoration. What we would like to see in Zimbabwe is I believe is what most Zimbabweans want to see in Zimbabwe. That is for the country to return to the path it set out for itself 27 years ago- of creating a non racial, non ethnic democracy with the thriving market driven economy, that is improving the lives of the citizens. That certainly I think is the great hope that Zimbabwe holds for the world, particularly the African continent at the time of independent. Our current political difficulties with the Government of Zimbabwe are really grounded on the fact that we feel that they have lost their way in the last 27 years.  This is no longer a Government that is interested in pursuing a multi-party democracy, where race is not used as a political weapon and which I think no body can dispute that certainly has destroyed what was once the second strongest economy in the whole of Africa. So you might say how do you think you have been successful for what you are describing as a record failure on the part of the Government here- betrayal of those ideals? My answer to that is that during this time we accomplished a number of things. We have helped civil society to hang on and maintain the democratic space despite a tremendous pressure on the part of the authorities to constrict that space. We have been able to help ordinary Zimbabweans to retain access to information through support of the free media. I think we done good work, excellent work in helping the people of this country survive. Over the past three years, we averaged $50 million a year in food assistance to feed hungry Zimbabweans who are suffering because of the Government’s mistaken agricultural policies and we have been contributing on average over the past three years - the average is $20 million on HIV and AIDS, prevention and care treatment and looking after orphaned children. Most recently, we have been able to announce the initiation of huge ARV programme. We are going to support 40 000 people who are currently on HIV and AIDS. The 40000 people are currently on ARV programme in Zimbabwe. For the next three years, we are going to support them. This will help the Government to build a better logistical system, stronger system, better maintain the flow of these medicines - people need them constantly, a solid foundation of even for a larger scale programme in the future. We are doing this in cooperation with the Ministry of Health and Child Welfare. I do believe that over the past three years. We have been able to help this country get to the point where it is today which I believe that democratic change is coming in the short term. Hopefully, the SADC mediation led by President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa will achieve its goal, which everybody support - Zanu-PF and the MDC. We have the SADC countries, I think the international community which is to create the condition of the free and fair elections here next March on the timetable announced by the Government. I think if (Mr) Mbeki initiative succeeds and if there are genuinely free and fair elections, then Zimbabwe will be in a position to turn around- to begin to build the economy, to begin to rebuild respect for the rule of law.

Q: As US Government, do support the Mr Mbeki’s initiative?

A: Absolutely-we have been very clear and saying we support the initiative. We believe that President Mbeki’s focus in creating conditions for free and fair elections, is the right one. We stand prepared to support the initiative in any way by SADC itself.  We wish some luck- I know that this weekend the MDC and Zanu-PF teams are supposed to meet down in South Africa face to face to discuss their respective positions. We certainly hope that President Mbeki will now move quickly and forcefully move this process forward. We hope there will be a successful conclusion – setting up conditions for the elections next March.

Q: You said part of you mission was not to effect regime change, but regime restoration, do you think the problems in Zimbabwe will end if there is complete change of Government or changes within Zanu-PF can also do?

A: I think those are both possible outcomes and one of them will I think offer - they will be different, but they offer possibilities for turning the country around.  I think there are so many people inside the ruling party who understand that the current policies are ruinous. They are responsible for the accelerating collapse of the economy and the country around it. I think if those people had a chance to come to power, use their talents and influence, there is a possibility of reform coming from Zanu-PF being real. I was also thinking of a possibility coming from the opposition if they won elections as equally real. So I think those out outcomes are potentially good ones for the country. The only outcome that is not good for the country is the continuation of the current madness of the polices. I do not care how many Degrees in economic do you have, you cannot print money without creating real value behind that money and not bringing inflation. You cannot suspend those laws of economics. If you print money without creating real wealth of the value, you gonna cause inflation. The private estimates from the private analsysts is that the inflation in this country is now running between 16 000 and 19 000 percent,  which is much higher than the official statistics. These are companies in business and they have a reason to tell themselves the truth- I think that’s pretty good estimates of what inflation is. No Government has ever survived inflation when it gets to four and five digits. You can’t. The events just spin out of control. The economy collapses around you. So I certainly hope that the country’s current leadership recognises there is need for a new way of doing business, but if not, we hope the outcome of the elections is a victory for one of the forces of reform whether from the opposition or the current ruling party.

Q: The issue of the targeted sanctions - targeted at a few people in Zanu-PF, do you think they are serving their desired purposes?

A: Yes, I do, everytime I read one of the newspapers, some Government Minister, some Member of the Politburo, complain about these sanctions and this tells that they are having the desired effect and are hurting them personally.  We know for a fact – senior people have told me that they have important business transaction they wanted to complete, big loans they wanted to take out have been blocked. The purpose of the sanctions were to make sure that those we believe are responsible for the collapse of the economy share the pain of the ordinary Zimbabweans by denying them the opportunities to insulate themselves from the effects of the very policies they put inplace, limit their abilities to make money freely by trading with American companies and borrowing money from banks etecetera. I think if you understand, that is the goal of the sanctions. We do not agree and I think its more of excuse making to say all the economic problems have been caused by the sanctions. I will give a small puzzle to think about to prove my point. As you know, our targeted sanctions only prohibit Americans from doing business with certain Zimbabweans and those Zimbabweans from doing business with certain Americans. There is no way we can prevent Zimbabweans from doing business with Zimbabweans - no, we do not have that power. The Zimbabweans are not investing in Zimbabwe because the environment is too unpredictable – there is too little respect for the rule of law- you cannot invest in land. The Government has given itself power to cease land, there is no recourse to the court system. Hence you see for yourself. Zimbabwe’s problem is a result of the polices of this country, even Zimbabweans do not want to take the risk of investing in their country today. In almost three years that I have been here, not a single American business has come to me for advise whether they should invest in Zimbabwe or not. They do not need to come to the American ambassador to make their conclusion – this is just a very high-risk business environment right now and they are not interested. The same with the American businesses that are doing business here not have come to me either. Nobody has come to me to say should we stay or should we leave, they make their own calculation and they know the business climate here very well. There is a saying that capital is a coward, meaning the people do not want to take some risks with their money. They invest where they have assumptions to make profit- a return in their investment. In a country like Zimbabwe where the Government has taken upon itself the right to intervene in the any sector anytime anywhere it want and deny people to due process and rule of law, business can go elsewhere. Today’s international investor can invest in Zimbabwe, in Guatemala, Singapore, France – they look at places with conducive condition to success. Zimbabwe is simply not in the league at this point- It is out of the running in most cases because it is just too high risk.

Q: The Government of Zimbabwe argues that these sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by some western countries, including your country are illegal because they were not sanctioned by the United Nations- What is your comment on that?

A: That is a completely fallacious argument - spurious argument.  The United States does not have to have permission from the United Nations to say we find certain people not desirable and welcome in our country. Zimbabwe does the same thing - it turned people away. I have been at the airport to receive delegation - black trade unionists from America. Zimbabwe turned them away. Is that illegal? Of course not and Zimbabwe chooses not to let anyone from coming into the country, it has that right and the United States has the same right. In fact we have exercised that right and made public the fact that we are not going to welcome certain individuals is in no way illegal. United States in terms of financial sanctions in terms of the Government oftenly tries to argue about the international financial institutions, we are a member of those institutions and we have certain voting rights and we choose to exercise those voting rights for or against Zimbabwe- that is not illegal. That are what voting rights are and we have to vote - we have got to chose. If we choose to say we are not going to authorise lending to Zimbabwe unless certain conditions are met, its not illegal. That what we have got the right to do as we contributed to those institutions. Other members of the board might decide to vote against us – we might lose those votes. Voting itself is not illegal- we are exercising our right to make a choice. I think the arguments that the sanctions are illegal are completely spurious, but it gives the Government the only talking point to explain its failure economically.

Q: The issue of the Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act passed by your country, when is it going to be repealed?

A: I think it is likely to be repealed if the Government begins the process of reform that I have alluded to earlier. When this country rolls back the repressive legislation, when it frees again the media - independent media, when it allows a genuinely free and fair election – level playing field, don’t use the police and army to crash the opposition. When the Government embraces the kind of sound economic polices that everybody beginning with the IMF and the World Bank advised them to pursue.  That is what I think will lead to the repeal of ZIDERA - when the Government has embraced reforms and is pursuing sound polices that will ensure the well being of the ordinary people and create free genuine political space for democratic processes.  That I think is the moment when that act will be repealed. A couple of years ago, I coined an expression that I think is still very valid in terms of our relationships with this country – that is Rescue Requires Reforms. This country cannot save itself, the crisis is out of control. We made it very clear that we are prepared to help – to be very generous indeed to help the country rebuild, but we are not going to do without genuine political reforms. In fact that phrase was subconsciously echoed by the IMF itself – that it was prepared to help Zimbabwe provided Zimbabwe undertakes fundamental economic reforms – ending the fiscal funding activities of the central bank being principal among them. Printing of money without any value behind it etc. A serious policy - there is nothing new about it. They made it clear that until Zimbabwe reforms, it will not be possible to help this country.

Q: Your country recently confirmed that it was working with political parties and civic organisations to influence public events in Zimbabwe - Is this not a confirmation of the regime change agenda the Zanu-PF Government has been complaining about?

A: It’s a beat of a temperature in a teacup. We are not so dump that this is really a secret programme we issue a public report about it. We have been doing this for many years now and those reports describe our activities in many countries – including countries we have excellent relations with.  These are not secret regime change agendas, it is about supporting like minded individuals in many countries around the globe, not just in the so called third word. We do it in places such as Bulgaria, Cossovo in Europe as well as many countries in South America and in the Far East. Just as the Communist Party of China, supports Zanu-PF because it believes in its belief system, the United States support like minded individuals who believe in democracy, freedom and prosperity. I think if you look at the report carefully, you will also see that it is not saying we support political parties here. We do not do that. We do support civic society organisations, some of which are politically oriented as well. We do not actually support parties. To do that it is self-defeating. Zanu-PF always tries to raise issues that the MDC is the creature of the west operated by the west. For that reason, we do not provide money to political parties. The accusation is made all the time, but is simply not true.

Q: The issue of the land reform programme in Zimbabwe- any comment about it?

A:  This is another issue I am afraid for its own political purposes, the Government distorts wildly. As I said to your President (Mugabe) when I presented my credentials, we do not have any doubts that a great historical injustice was committed in Zimbabwe when land was taken over in the 19th century – the colonial period. There is no doubt that the land reform and rectification of the injustice was extremely necessary. Our problem is the way it was carried out. You do not rectify historical injustices by creating new injustices or by creating economic disaster. The fact that land needed to be redistributed among the people is something we agree with 100 percent. We would like to have seen that happen in conjunction with sound agriculture and economic policies that would ensure the people get the land they deserved, that they have the tools and inputs to use the land productively. Instead, what has happened is that the heart of Zimbabwe’s economy has been destroyed – the commercial farming sector in the name of the need of social justice- we underscore that. The former commercial farming sector, the white commercial farmers have not been replaced by justices, but a new series of injustice. People given too little land, people thrown on the land without tools – no inputs. Senior officials being given the best land getting multiple farms for themselves. They have privileged access to inputs such as diesel and tractors, which they turn around and sell at the parallel market instead of using them on the field and produce for the country. I think our problem is not with the idea of the land reform, but the bad way it was carried out that led to the collapse of the economy. It cost hundreds of thousands of black Zimbabweans their livelihood- all those farm workers. They have been forced off the land and given nothing, some of them are still along the sides of roads and the forests. Others have fled to South Africa or Botswana. These are my comments on the land reform - I think at this point we understand the land reform was it necessary, but it’s a done deal. It happened, there is no going back to the status core. No body in the right mind argues that. Its time that we get away from the sterile debate about land, colonialism, racism, white faces, black, empty historical argumentation and get to a serious discussion on how to restore the land to productive use.  All the old systems have been broken up, something new has to be built, some thing that is going to serve as the foundation that drives the economy and moves it forward. To return the whole country to the levels of subsistence farming its an option, but I do not think it’s a sound one. We see the messy around us as a result of that. That essentially what happens. The best land is not being farmed well because the cellphone farmers do not know what they are doing. The distortions in the market which the Government causes through its prices policies – mainly control of inputs, control of seed of fuel has led to tremendous rent seeking opportunities by those with privileged access on inside information. We see time and again diverting of fuel the Government will have bought with scarce foreign exchange into the parallel market. The legacy the President of the ruling party is trying to create is being destroyed from within by wrong polices.

Q: Since the land reform programme has been done and no going back, is your Government prepared to support the new farmers?

A: We are absolutely prepared to assist the new farmers once the Government here put in place a series of sensible sound polices so that any assistance given can be effective. It is not good for us to take one example - create a programme on which some of America’s leading research universities create new seed variety - one thing we used to do in the past. Its not good doing that if the Government is continuing to pursue economic polices that farmers if they get that kind of seeds developed for local condition, if the Government still makes it impossible to get fuel, fertiliser or irrigation. What the country needs, I think its rear in Africa maybe in two or three countries with vertically integrated agriculture sector with good land - Zimbabwe still have, to irrigation to a market capable to a timely and cost effect delivery of inputs to a credit system that allows farmers to borrow for the planting season - a land ownership system based on tittle deeds- that allows farmers to go to the bank and borrow money in order to do the growing and gives the banks back.  Infrastructures- markets, all those things - extension services are necessary as part of the country’s agriculture policy. To simply say we have taken the land back is ours, is simply not an agriculture policy. It’s a political decoration.

Q: Any comments that you think may assist Zimbabwe in future?

A: More than half the people in this country were born after 1980- they call themselves born frees. Zimbabwe needs to recast the political discourse in this country to talk about the future.  This is something that is stuck with me since the trip to Bulawayo in October 2004 to meet people down here. The ruling party-the leaders in this country justify their continued rule solely on the basis of two claims – we fought the liberation struggle – we deserve to govern- we gave you the land back, we deserve to govern. I am not trying to denigrate the historical importance of those historical facts of this country. But half the population was not alive at independence they are like people anywhere else.  They are worried not much about history – they are worried about tomorrow, brining food on the table for their children, getting education, helping sick parents perhaps finding clothing, jobs –futures. That is what this country needs to talk about. It needs to talk about the future. There will never be a possibility of a stable, I do not think of prosperous Zimbabwe unless all the people have a voice in talking about their future. To say that a handful of old man get to make all the decisions on the basis of certain historical facts when the rest of the population was not even born is not good. You can defend your right to power on the basis of historical achievements – yes everywhere they do that, but you cannot solely lead on that basis, you need to talk about the future. Until such a time when the people of this country have a word to discuss what their future got to be, it seems to me there is very little room to improve- It just means the continuation of the current stalemate. I hope Zimbabweans get the right way forward.

Q: From here, where are you going and who is going to replace you?

A: From here I am going to Afghanistan to Kabul. I cannot tell who is coming, I do not want to preempt my President. I will be there by August.

Ends…